After months of waiting for Drupal 6 to get up to speed, I'm getting sick of waiting.
The worst part is seeing Views 2 and other key supporting modules flounder while the core Drupal team rushes on to Drupal 7 before 6 is even usable.
Slow down, seriously. This is one recent adopter who's disappointed with the headlong pace and the near abandonment of what's just come out the door. I realize it's exciting and probably profitable to you, but when the codebase is a moving target and the next version significantly cuts into current development to the point of current = incomplete... well that seems an obvious Catch-22 problem to me.
Freeze 7 and finish up 6. You called it complete, but it isn't. You cannot complete 7 anyway since these are modules planned for the 7 core.
I'm not a site-designing company, so I'm not profiting from the steep learning curves, accelerated development and problematic upgrade paths. Overall I think the software is well designed, but the priorities of the companies that fuel most of the development are beginning to sit poorly with me.
Edit: I'm going to clarify here, because at least one person misunderstood the paragraph above. I'm not accusing anyone of being money-grubbing greed mongers. It's just that money and business tend to act like glue in regards to priorities such as these and that means the situation may be stuck this way./Edit
Granted, some of the forward-thinking features brought me to Drupal in the first place, but I'd just like a stable and complete platform to work with. It puts me at unease to realize that's two versions before what's being developed now.
This is me grumbling a little before I just make do with Drupal 5. I'm already past my original deadlines and Drupal 6 looks like it will still be stalled for awhile.
Comments
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
If what you really mean to say is "Drupal 6 = Views + CCK", I have to disagree with you. Drupal 6 is not only complete, it is already on it's second point release, and it is a very usable and powerful platform. It is an especially attractive tool for module developers, as evidenced by the growing number of modules that are for D6 only. Any decision to use it should be made based on an analysis of core plus available module, not core plus modules you hope to use sometime in the future.
Views and CCK are still contrib modules, and there are whole teams of people working on them. Scolding the core team for doing their job as well as they can will not get Views and CCK built any faster.
You say:
...but the priorities of the companies that fuel most of the development are beginning to sit poorly with me.
I'd appreciate you putting a finer point on this. Your complaint seems to be with Views and CCK development; which companies are disgruntling you here?
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
PS: If you think Views 2 and CCK 2 are floundering, you're not paying attention. Please inspect these two pages on Drupal.org (use the pager links to scroll back in time some), and tell me what other projects are this actively developed. Views 2 and CCK 2 are two of the most intensively developed pieces of Drupal code. You should be aware of this before wingeing or you might come across as unappreciative.
http://drupal.org/project/cvs/38878
http://drupal.org/project/cvs/48429
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
Robert, from merlinofchaos' own blog concerning the migration of developers to core and away from integral modules like Views: http://www.angrydonuts.com/where-are-they
Note that was posted almost a month ago and that Views missed its expected April deadline. At this point, it's been said to be close so many times that you must please excuse me for not expecting it tomorrow.
The key modules lagging migration are Views 2, CCK and Organic Groups, although like OG there are many waiting on Views. It really should have been core for Drupal 6, because it is in all but name and Drupal 7 can't complete without it anyway.
My disappointment is that many of the developers calling the shots at Drupal are employed in contractual site design. That's the clear skew for priorities. There is very little emphasis on ease of upgrade paths, since those companies move onto the next project or at the most get contracted again and simply redesign. I'm sure that they're profitably happy with how things are, so why should they change to support others? But Drupal itself isn't a narrow site design / rollout package, it's intended to be a full CMS. A full CMS should contain migrational paths, especially to its own different versions (and certainly migration to/from other CMS' is very limited in Drupal as well).
To make it very clear, migration between versions does not bring profit to the major Drupal developers. In fact, it would be easy to argue that they profit from a lack of it, although I'm not about to start any conspiracy theories.
I'm not naming names, because I don't have anything against any of these individuals or their employers. Some of them are acquaintances of mine, even prior to Drupal's existance. I respect the work that's gone into Drupal, especially Views and CCK. I just think it's an unbalanced situation that's created a stall in development and for me personally a timeline of frustration. Much is getting worked on, but what gets done is skewed.
. . .
As an aside:
As far as unappreciative, it's a question of different priorities for different people. I believe my complaints are more than valid. It does also concern me that within the Drupal community there is a bad habit to label any complaints as traitors to the community, which is extremely unfortunate to see whenever someone makes constructive criticism or expresses their frustrations. Drupal as a whole should be able to accept valid criticism and develop solutions.
Unfortunately, that's part of the Catch-22, some of the developers more inclined to balance Drupal's development may have been scared off and moved on. Telling me I'm not paying attention when I point out problems in the development process are not encouraging words that they'll be fixed.
This is my first real complaint with Drupal. If I was truly unappreciative, I'd just move on to another CMS and discount this one as inappropriate for me. To put it bluntly, if I didn't love the software so much, this situation wouldn't be as frustrating as it is.
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
I have to agree with Rog that Views is essential to migration, but migration itself isn't treated as important with Drupal.
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
To add on the whole development skew thing. I dunno, Drupal is pretty well rounded so it's not like it's completely focussed this way, it just has some holes that you wouldn't expect.
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
Rog, I don't really want touch the migration issue here since that is an additional challenge, and off topic to your original post, except that what you say embodies the very kernel of my disagreement:
That's the clear skew for priorities. There is very little emphasis on ease of upgrade paths, since those companies move onto the next project or at the most get contracted again and simply redesign. I'm sure that they're profitably happy with how things are, so why should they change to support others?
Here you state that upgrade paths are not a priority because companies who build sites have a motivation to ignore it (or at least no motivation to focus on it). Out of all the companies I know that build sites in Drupal, and all the developers they employ, I can't think of any for whom this holds true. Most of the developers I know keep their own sites updated to the latest Drupal release (sometimes with a lot of lag time, like in the case of robshouse.net), and this upgrade pain is felt by them first-hand. I find the insinuation that there is anyone purposefully holding Drupal back in any way so that they can profit from the situation very insulting and very out of touch. It is a conspiracy theory, and it is exactly what you are implying.
Your distrust of developers who make money by doing Drupal work is made very clear with this sentence:
My disappointment is that many of the developers calling the shots at Drupal are employed in contractual site design.
What are Drupal developers supposed to be doing? How would you have it otherwise? Should they all have day jobs in the banking industry and work on Drupal at night? Furthermore, it isn't even true. Dries Buytaert, for example, has never been employed to do contractual site design. You're careful not to be very specific, though, which makes me think you have some individual examples of people who's behavior you'd modify if you could. Please know that many people who start out contributing to Drupal as a hobby transition into full-time employment doing some sort of Drupal development or consulting, and that this is a fulfillment of their greatest dream. They can ditch the day job and focus on the software they love. These people, and there are lots of them, carry their volunteer, FOSS, community collaboration roots with them to work every day. Accusing them of doing anything to hold Drupal back, for profit, is rude.
You also say this, which is supposed to link my posting here with a general habit of labeling people:
It does also concern me that within the Drupal community there is a bad habit to label any complaints as traitors to the community
I won't deny you the right to complain, but I will point out to you that your comments diminish the work of a lot of people who are busting their butts writing code for you to use. I'll also take issue with any insinuation that any developers are holding Drupal back on purpose. Finally, I'll disagree with any argument that has, as its thesis, the suggestion that we slow down Drupal 7 development because of the state of the contrib repository.
If you don't like the state of the contrib repository (Views in this case), wrack your brain to think up some positive and constructive suggestions about how to make the system better. You can do better than that... you can volunteer to make those changes, or lead a group of volunteers to make those changes. You'll have to build consensus, defend that your suggestions are good, explain carefully to those who have doubts, and burn a lot of midnight oil to make sure your changes live up to the high expectations of others. But in the end, that's what Drupal contributors do.
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
Robert, it's funny how these kind of discussions grow in the wrong direction.
I feel I'm making myself clear, but you're trying to read between the lines things that aren't there, then taking insult on those assumptions. I stated directly that I wasn't giving in to any conspiracy theory, I absolutely do not think anything as absurd as anyone sabotaging development, so please stop and focus on things I've actually said.
I am hardly ungrateful of the results of open-source development, which is something I've contributed to for 17 years, both financially and in the kind of blood sweat and tears you've described. I have given a substantial portion of myself to projects such as these. I do not begrudge anyone making a living or even a substantial profit from such projects, I've already said as much. I do prefer that the full nature of the project itself dictates its development, but I also realize we do not live in the utopia of my dreams.
I am not the first or only person to question the logic of the order of development, clearly Views needs to be completed before Drupal 7 is done regardless. You want a constructive suggestion? That's it right there. You disagree, that's fine, but geez, I must defend my suggestion as good? Are we holding court or something here? Either the suggestion is taken, or it isn't.
I've already given my reasons, I think smooth upgrade / migration paths are paramount and sorely lacking in Drupal. That's intrinsic to the complaint, this IS an upgrade & migration issue versus a headlong pace to the next version. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this timeline the only thing that's keeping Views as contrib and not core as it was accepted? On these grounds my basic thesis as you put it, stays the same: I believe the core development is outpacing features that should have gone in the previous version and it looks as if that course will continue. Is that highly critical of Drupal as a whole? I suppose it is.
I think the development priorities are straightforward, obvious and natural, yet flawed. No hidden conspiracies, just worried where those priorities are rooted, because if they're deeply rooted then they won't change. That's the concern about money and business fueling the priorities, because those things are like glue. I feel those priorities are holding Drupal back.
I think Dries has done a good job coordinating Drupal development, I do not mean to imply this reflects on him, instead it's just the nature of any open source project when the majority of developers have shared and implicit priorities, the project goes where the manpower is. I am merely expressing my frustration that their emphasis runs against the grain of my own preference. Yes, I have self-interests too.
. . .
Again as the aside, since this is more personal:
The other problem that's come up here, is that I do not feel free to state my complaints, suggestions or concerns when the first time I do so someone highly visible from the project comes to my blog to issue heavy handed warnings to me, insisting I'm making an affront to the everyone on the project. That was intimidating and unnecessary.
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
Cool. You clarified your positions and you thought them through from start to finish. That's the burden of publishing on the web. I take what you're saying as you intend it to be taken.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this timeline the only thing that's keeping Views as contrib and not core as it was accepted?
This isn't quite the truth. What is true is what merlinofchaos states on his blog; that he won't much feel like jumping into the effort to further integrate Views into core right after he finishes up the effort to bring out Views 2. I can understand this. These efforts are exhausting and one needs some rest and recuperation. Furthermore, the effort of moving Views into core isn't as simple as moving the files into /modules and calling it good. The whole Views package will most likely be seen as too large and complicated for core inclusion as is, so parts will have to be extracted and refactored to fit core's expectations. Then the parts of core that can be done using the new Views functionality need to be rewritten. This qualifies as a huge task.
It is also true that Views is at once so important and so big that scalability problems are emerging. Especially in the light of how much work goes into Panels, and Node Queue, and many of the other modules that Earl is involved with. These problems have to be looked at and solved, for sure.
Don't feel intimidated for being challenged on what you wrote. I try hard not to attack people, but I will point it out to you if you write things that are inaccurate, or that belittle the work of others. Your edit in the original post goes a long way to defusing the original thorn.
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
http://xkcd.com/406/
... just kidding!
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
What's this turned into, the e-peen competition between the technical writers? The oldschooler journalist versus the web publishing watchdog. What's the score? Only other writers would know.
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
Did he just imply that you lack experience publishing on the web? Are you going to take that sitting down? Hit him over the head with your 300 baud modem, it probably weighs enough to get the point across. ;)
Go get him Rog! Round Two! Let's see the writers slag it out!
Re: Drupal 6 suffering from Drupal 7
Nah. As it is, progress with Views 2 is moving along now (beta, woot!) and hopefully Organic Groups plus other modules I need will follow along quickly in its shadows. I may even be able to use Drupal 6 if it happens fast enough.
I do believe Robert addressed this wrong, but that happens sometimes when you're passionate about something and I wouldn't want him to lose any of that passion. It is easy to be overly protective and hard to just accept criticisms, but I don't resent his stance even if I do disagree with it.
As for the writer versus writer thing, hey what can I say, ego (often delicate) goes with the territory. The last thing I'd do on this conversation is add more fuel over what either of us have supposedly implied. Nobody needs to witness that kind of pissing contest and I think we're both adult enough to call this a misunderstanding.